Before the S-400 Triumph long-range anti-aircraft missile system appeared in Syria, the Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile and cannon system (ZRPK) covered the airspace over the Russian Khmeimim airbase. From the moment they act in conjunction, there is practically no chance to penetrate the air defense of our airfield. However, Russian partners in military-technical cooperation could be convinced of the combat capabilities of the Tula-made air defense missile systems even earlier. The chief designer of the Tula Instrument Design Bureau for air defense systems Valery SLUGIN.
- How long have you been doing Pantsir, Valery Georgievich?
- From his very birth, as soon as the idea appeared.
- So, ZRPK "Pantsir" is a native Tula?
- His spiritual alma mater is the city of Tver, the Air Defense Research Center. By this time, after the Tunguska, we had already made the Kortik anti-aircraft missile and artillery complex for the sailors, which I also dealt with inside and out. Then I was transferred to the land.
- To the infantry?
- Into the winged one. The fact is that the legendary head of the Tula instrument-making design bureau Arkady Georgievich Shipunov was very attentive to the Airborne Forces, and in general they were great friends with the commander of the Airborne Forces Vasily Filippovich Margelov. Therefore, many issues were resolved, say, informally. There was such a case: once Margelov came to Shipunov and said: “Arkady, put Fagot on the airborne assault vehicles for me. As you know, I have no money, but if you do, I will publicly kiss you in all places."
- And what, did you fulfill Margelov's special order?
- Was it possible not to fulfill such a request! Then I had a chance to take part in the installation of the "Fagot" instead of the "Baby" on the BMD in the Kaunas regiment. Again, by order of Uncle Vasya, a full-scale anti-aircraft missile system "Roman" was made for the paratroopers: 8 missiles for a 12 km range, a 30-mm 2A72 cannon, a detection and tracking station, and a landing vehicle. Everything was already in the gland, but the complex did not go. That happens. And then the S-300 anti-aircraft missile system appeared. A wonderful complex, a real "Favorite" when it comes to shooting down serious targets at long range. But there are also cruise missiles that fly so low-low and can hit the "three hundred" itself - and then it will not fulfill its purpose. How to be? Option one: it was necessary to make a complex that would protect the "three hundred". And on the basis of what to do? It was then that they paid attention to our air defense missile system "Roman".
- It turns out that "Shell" is the blood brother of "Roman"? What are they called differently?
- This is a question for the Main Missile and Artillery Directorate, for the military - they seem to have some kind of classifier there. So they are the godfathers of "Pantsir". We, as soon as the idea took shape, got down to work. In 1990, since our military-industrial complex was already lying on its side, Shipunov and Air Defense Commander Ivan Moiseevich Tretyak signed a contract directly. But funding was sorely lacking. We did not have our own resources either, they survived mainly due to small arms, which they made for the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
- After anti-tank and anti-aircraft systems, they switched to pistols - did they fall so low?
- Versatility … It was necessary to survive somehow! And in 1996, when KBP received the right to trade independently, we already began to look for customers abroad. And they found the Emirates, or rather, Shipunov found it. The negotiations continued for several years. And in the end, the Arabs still "lit" Shipunov.
- For money?
- No, in a good way - for an idea. Once he returns after another southern business trip and says: "Guys, throw it all to hell, we will make a new rocket!" The fact is that, in addition to the Tula KBP, the Canadians, the French and the Research Electromechanical Institute with the Tor air defense system participated in the competition. Then the Canadians disappeared, "Thor", although the complex is very good, also disappeared, we were left with the French. But could Shipunov have left the race? Never! This is how a new rocket appeared. But it was very difficult, and in general the complex was born hard.
- Everyone has heard about the Arab blood of "Carapace". Didn't his homeland really need him?
- At first, the motherland absolutely did not need it, it was not up to it then - crisis, devastation … they helped us with their capabilities. But the real work began only in 2000, when a contract was signed with the Emirates and the money went. But there were many other difficulties, besides financial ones. Especially on location matters.
We needed a millimeter-centimeter locator, because the centimeter range is less affected by precipitation and sees farther, and the millimeter range is accuracy. But at first neither the Ministry of Defense Industry nor the Ministry of Radio Industry wanted to create a location with a millimeter range, they believed that this was impossible. And only after we ourselves made a mock-up of such a locator and conducted tests, it was decided that the locator would be taken up in Ulyanovsk. But then the concern "Fazotron" was formed, the director of which once said that Tula is a village and Ulyanovsk is a village, and in the location, they say, we do not understand anything. In general, instead of Ulyanovsk, "Phazotron" got down to business, but since their priority was the aircraft location, their hands did not reach our locator.
- But what about the contract with a foreign customer?
- When we signed a contract with the Emirates, it was honestly said that we do not have a complex yet. And they gave us four years to complete the development and roll out the series. And here are the problems … The situation is critical.
- It's hard to believe that "Shell" has such an adventurous fate!..
- Arkady Georgievich Shipunov, whom we called AG by his initials, acted like a weightlifter: if the weight was not taken, but there were attempts, then in order to still win, we must increase the weight. We already had a mock-up of a single-channel millimeter-centimeter locator, when the AG makes a decision: we will make a multichannel complex with a phased array. This is how Radiofizika OJSC appeared on the horizon, which was engaged in large radars, moreover, in the millimeter range. Another layout was made, but they could not bring the locator to mind either.
And the problems are layered. Our 12 km rocket was smokeless and we saw it well with optics. They put an engine on a mixed fuel on the 20-kilometer route, and this is solid smoke. As a result, during development, we wasted almost half of the missiles only because we did not have a locating system, and the optical system was covered with smoke. And it was happiness when a strong wind rose across the line of fire at the range …
- But the rocket still flew?
- I flew. But what's the point if we don't see it in optical mode, there is a transmitter, but there is no direction finder … And here, thanks to advertising, a demand for "Pantsir" was formed, one might say, on an international scale. What to do? And then, it was 2004, Shipunov makes, one might say, the historic decision to make the locator himself. A new direction for KBP was headed by his deputy Leonid Borisovich Roshal. Under him, a new, more productive cooperation has also developed. TsKBA (Central Design Bureau of Automation) made the receiving and transmitting system, and the entire structure and antenna, as well as the beam control system and the control unit, were made by the KBP. All mathematics - MVTU. So it was proved that, if you really want to, a modern locator can be made in the "village". Although at first many, including myself, were very skeptical about this venture. But somehow Shipunov called a small group of three people to his place and said: “Guys, drop all doubts. We have no other choice, we have to do it. " So we dropped our doubts. And everything worked out.
- But this is a process. But the very moment of the birth of "Shell" is somehow fixed?
- It happened in December. AG went to conclude a contract for "Shell" with another Arab country. And we are with the very first sample - to the landfill in Kapustin Yar. Before leaving, he tells me: "If there are no positive results, I will not sign the contract." I reported to him twice a day - in the morning and in the evening. We received the first successful launch only at the very end of December, and AG nevertheless signed the contract. In general, he met the New Year at the airport. Well, we celebrated the official birth of "Pantsir" at home.
Could the complex have appeared earlier? Probably he could. And this is not only a matter of poor funding. New technologies and new ideas appeared, so we had to redo something all the time. For example, the optical direction finder of a rocket was redesigned three times. So even before the ready-made "Shell" was born, it went through several modernizations.
- How did the presentation of Pantsir go abroad?
- The contract provided for one half of the "Pants" to be made on a caterpillar track, the other - on wheels. At the first demonstration tests abroad of the tracked chassis, problems immediately arose: the engine cooling system did not work well at high temperatures, there were questions about ergonomics, and most importantly, the tracks in the sand were constantly flying off the rollers. But Minskers are great. They quickly redid everything, and the re-tests were just brilliant. And then the Arabs themselves came to the conclusion that an automobile chassis is preferable, and demonstration tests of the complex were carried out on a wheeled chassis.
- It turns out that the Arabs ordered this "music", they paid for everything, and our Ministry of Defense got "Pantsir" practically for nothing, right?
- I would not say. The complex was designed, one might say, jointly. The work was going on in parallel. Some requirements for the complex were put forward by a foreign customer, others - by our military department. As a result, the complex, as I said, was originally 12-km long and single-channel, but became 20-km long and multi-channel.
- And how many "Shells" are rolling around the world now?
- I'll tell you "for sure": several hundred BM and more than one thousand missiles.
- At the present time, this is already an industrial scale. Were there any problems with the development of serial production?
- In this case, there are no current problems. But what is our advantage in comparison with other enterprises? The fact that we develop a lot ourselves and produce at home. Therefore, it is minimally dependent on counterparties. Look: we make the location ourselves, the rocket ourselves, the design is also all ours, the optical system is again the KBP and the enterprises of our holding. The power supply system was also decided to be made at home. And this is a very big plus.
- Clear. There is protection from the fool, and you also created protection from an unscrupulous supplier?
In 2003, academician Arkady Shipunov introduced Vladimir Putin to the best developments of the Tula KBP. Photo by Alexey Panov / TASS
- It's not just that. If the complex is a prefabricated hodgepodge of products from different enterprises, the optimal coordination of the given characteristics, as a rule, is difficult. We work in a different way: we make rockets ourselves, for which we give ourselves a technical assignment, and we make a locator ourselves - as they say, without intermediaries. Where necessary, we will press in the design of one system or "release" in another … Here you have the "Shell" at the exit.
- Do you want to say that the Ministry of Defense knows better what the military needs?
- Arkady Georgievich Shipunov often repeated: "Never do literally what the military is asking!" He believed that the task of the designers of the military-industrial complex was to figure out for themselves in which direction the development of weapons and military equipment was going, to analyze the future and tell the military where to go. This was his principle. Actually, this is how the millimeter range appeared - in the context of work on the Kortik anti-aircraft missile and artillery complex, designed to combat cruise missiles.
- And the impulse, probably, was the death of the British destroyer Sheffield, which the Argentines sank with the Exocet cruise missile during the war for the Falkland Islands?
- Is that an impulse. Even before the events in the Falklands, we thought about how to shoot down low-flying targets - "Harpoons" and "Tomahawks". To make the influence of water less, the location beam had to be made as narrow as possible. And even a few years before the appearance of "Kortik", we carried out the corresponding research work with the Kharkov Institute - to study what the millimeter range can and cannot.
- Have you studied?
- Examined. Therefore, our missile telecontrol system is still working.
- And what about the rocket itself?
- It's sweetie!
- We switched to culinary terminology …
- No, I'm serious. What does it take to destroy the target? Firstly, it must be detected and, secondly, something must be amazed. That is, in the bottom line, only a detector and a warhead are needed, the rest of the elements are, as it were, superfluous. Our rocket is known to be two-stage. The engine is separated one and a half seconds after starting, and the main stage already flies by inertia. Moreover, the entire marching stage weighs 28 kg, and the warhead - 20. It turns out that, by and large, only the warhead flies to the target. Its midship diameter is 90 mm. The engine, however, is thick - 170 mm, but after a second and a half it has already separated and does not spoil the aerodynamics … Isn't it brilliant? This is the idea of Academician Shipunov, which was first applied at the Tunguska.
- Good. And the accuracy? Are there any plans to make a missile with a seeker head for the Pantsir?
- Now even our own bosses criticize us for the fact that the whole world, they say, is engaged in homing heads, but we are not. But where is the limit when the telecontrol system will cease to work and one cannot do without the GOS? "Tunguska" hit at 8 km, and many did not believe that at such a distance it was possible to hit something at all. But they did! And the 10-km missile was successfully guided by the telecontrol system at the target. Today, at a 20-km range, our maximum deviation is only 5 m - if more, the proximity sensor of the target simply will not work. Is this accuracy possible at 30 km? Possible. Possible for 40 km. But if you put the homing head, the midsection will increase, and the rocket will lose its properties.
- Do you want to say that there is a dialectical dependence between the "model" appearance of the rocket and its combat properties?
- As you know, Israel has made the anti-missile defense system "David's Sling" with a five-meter Stunner missile, in translation - an amazing sight. Two guidance heads - radar and optical-electronic. We screwed the starter motor to the rocket, and so that the speed was decent, we put another one - a three-mode one. And there is nowhere to mount the warhead - they lost the warhead in the process of improvement! They say they will hit targets with a direct hit.
- That is, the homing head directly on the body?
- Like that. But let them try! I believe that the main advantage of the Pantsir lies precisely in its rocket, which is exceptionally highly dynamic, with very high flight and ballistic characteristics. No one has such missiles, including our potential adversary. It was the telecontrol system that allowed us to create such a rocket - simple and fast.
- So, the "Shell" owes all the best in itself to the rocket?
- Not only. There are two types of weapons in the car - rocket and cannon. Nobody has this either, unless they put a machine gun. And the "Pantsir" carries 12 missiles and one and a half tons of cannon ammunition. Now the control system. I think that it is completely self-sufficient. Consists of two full-fledged systems - location and optical, which, in turn, allows you to solve such problems that location cannot always solve even with a millimeter range. For example, the fight against low-flying targets - 5 m above the surface. In this case, the optical system accompanies the target and directs the rocket. In addition, the optical system allows firing at ground targets, which is very popular with our foreign customers. At a distance of 6 km, hitting a 20-kg warhead at any ground target is quite tangible!
- On the move or from a stop?
“We can work on the move with both guns and missiles. Again, none of the complexes have such properties. But most importantly, the "Shell" can simultaneously fire at four targets at once. Which has been repeatedly shown and proven. If we could not confirm this declared characteristic, no one would buy Pantsir from us.
- Military-technical cooperation is an area where, like in a bank, silence is preferred. And "Pantsir", as far as can be judged, does not really need advertising.
- Why is the complex so popular today, why does everyone want it? Because he hit the vein, because the nature of the development of air attack weapons was correctly determined. The era of cruise missiles has arrived. 200-300 cruise missiles - here's an instant disarming strike capable of destroying all infrastructure even without the use of nuclear weapons. How to deal with this? You can make a lot of S-300s and a lot of Buks, but they have very expensive missiles, an order of magnitude, if not more, more expensive than ours. And then there were drones, and in such numbers that you can't stock up on any missiles, if you don't take into account the value for money. But that's not all. Hypersonic aircraft are already approaching. And in order to fight them, it is necessary that the anti-aircraft missile flies as quickly as possible, including in the atmosphere. Which of the rockets will fly faster in the atmosphere? Of course, thin - like the "Shell".
- It turns out that your rocket is perfect and it can't be better?
- Why, now we are making another rocket, more advanced, which will be more powerful, and will fly faster and further. But at the same time it will remain in almost the same dimensions.
- I remember that at the very beginning of work on the air defense missile system, one of the officials of the Ministry of Defense skeptically called the "Pantsir" a cross between "Tunguska" and "Shilka". But today the Ministry of Defense buys more complexes than foreign customers. What is it - love will come unwittingly?..
- Why unintentionally? Firstly, the complex is very mobile - the "Pantsir" is loaded into the Il-76 using the lifting equipment of the aircraft itself. Secondly, it is easy to operate. In our training center, combat crews are being prepared. The training cycle is six months. Recently, their deputy commander of the Air Force and Air Defense came to us from Kuwait and confirmed that he had not seen a better training center in the world.
- Probably, the "Pantsir" already has real goals on its combat account?
- Literally in the summer we handed over a batch of cars to the Emirates. They shot at an unmanned aerial vehicle and shot it down at a distance of 15 km. Is this not a real goal?
- "Shell" - your greatest design success?
- I was lucky in the sense that I found myself in such jobs that have always been embodied. As a young specialist, he was engaged in the Konkurs anti-tank missile system, however, already at the stage of state tests. Then there was the naval theme - the Kortik anti-aircraft missile and artillery complex. True, the modernization of "Tunguska-M2" and ZRPK "Roman" went through without a trace. But I see it as training, like pumping up muscles in front of the "Shell". And he was adopted! And now we have created a special unit, which is actively working on the complex for the fleet - "Pantsir-M". The rocket is the same, the control system is appropriately "hot" - adapted to the operating conditions on the ship, and the launcher itself is similar in configuration to the "Kortika" launcher.
- Creation of "Pantsir" did not come at the best times. In the hard years, probably, a lot of specialists have gone? Is there a lack of intelligence?
- We then lost very much in human potential. In the 90s, specialists left who would now be over 50, and this is the most productive age in terms of creativity. There are few of them left at the enterprise, but I want to say that nowadays young people are growing up very quickly. Their basic training is lower, this is obvious, so there is a very large dropout rate. But those who felt a taste for work, saw a raisin in it, develop quite quickly. Because the work is real. And there is a certain romance. Some, for example, have traveled all over the world with "Pantsir". Wherever they were! Perhaps in the USA.
- I have no doubt that the Americans have already got themselves a "Shell" and spun it into cogs.
- The Americans probably don't need the Pantsir very much. Unlike us, cruise missiles in large numbers do not threaten them, although after the Caliber everything may change. But in any case, they have something to close. The American air defense system is quite optimal: Stinger - Patriot - THAAD. Patriot is a very good system, but pricey. Although for them, perhaps, not very … THAAD is an anti-missile system, and the Americans are great - they managed to sell it not only to Saudi Arabia, which buys everything in the world, but also to the Emirates. It should be noted that the Emirates are very good customers. They know what they want, are educated enough and are not afraid to operate equipment. They shoot a lot and, what is important, they do not create problems for the manufacturer of equipment from scratch.
- Do you have problems with a foreign customer not from scratch?
- It used to be that the Soviet Union produced equipment and weapons in thousands of copies - stamped, sent. And they all took it. It’s not like that now. Now there is the Emirati "Carapace", there is the Syrian "Carapace", and so on. They are all at least somewhat different from each other. Each "Pantsir" must be integrated into the air defense system of the country where it is supplied, and in addition, each contract is a separate set of documentation both for operation and for the capabilities of the customer country. Well, the design bar should be at its best all the time. Complexes of not the first freshness will not be bought. For the state order, we also modernized the Pantsir - right in the course of mass production.
- Have you significantly modernized?
- Substantially. Another locator. The computing system was supplied with more modern, new software. The structure has been improved - now the Pantsir can be transported by rail without removing anything. Changed the tower. Before, we had three missiles at the same time, now there are six missiles on each side. They installed a different navigation system. You will see everything for yourself - at the next Victory Parade.
