August 2 marks 80 years of the Airborne Forces. On the eve of the holiday, Ogonyok correspondents met with the legendary paratrooper, Hero of Russia, lieutenant colonel of the special forces of the Airborne Forces Anatoly Lebed. We left his words unchanged to give readers an idea of what today's officers think and how.
Anatoly Lebed began fighting in the 1980s in Afghanistan and continues to this day, even though he was left without a foot after the explosion. “Maresyev flew on an airplane without a leg, and ours jumps over the mountains,” the soldiers of the 45th Airborne Regiment say about Lebed.
We met with Anatoly Lebed in the park at the headquarters of the 45th Separate Guards Order of Alexander Nevsky Special Forces Reconnaissance Regiment, where he serves. It was no coincidence that he chose lunch time for the meeting - he devotes this hour-long break between training and jumping to walks with his dog named Pate ("Because he loves pate from dry ration"), which he brought from Chechnya. With her, he came to the interview.
"Politics is superfluous for the military"
- How did you get into the Airborne Forces?
- We started jumping in DOSAAF. All the time the sky was drawn. My friend and I entered the Balashov, then Borisoglebsk school, but did not pass mathematics, I wanted to fly. We came to the Airborne Forces, to the Gayzhunai division, there for six months, then an airborne assault brigade in Kazakhstan, there for another year and a half, then - the Lomonosov Military Aviation Technical School. We studied for three years in Transbaikalia, and from there - to Afghan. 86th year, June, and our issue was thrown there. Then he was taken out near Berdsk. In the 94th. There is a military unit, grass up to the waist, there is no place for helicopters at the airfield. I wrote a report, quit my job, I was already a senior citizen. There is no apartment, nothing. But the passport was given.
And what did you do?
- I went to war. Balkans, Kosovo. Belgrade was bombed when we arrived.
You retired from the army and voluntarily went to war?
- Yes.
What for?
- What do you mean why? We need to help. All the more so for the Orthodox. Moreover, the state, and not some individuals or companies.
- Was it your decision or were you asked?
- No, ours. We do everything ourselves.
"Who are "we?
- Our military, former and current, Russian officers. Or the veterans of the airborne troops.
Many, probably, will not understand you. There is no apartment, the family lives in a hostel, while you are not looking for work, not some kind of business, but went to the war, for which you will not be given anything
- Yes, they will not give anything, also do the passport yourself, the visa, buy the tickets yourself. But such a thing is not a pity.
Did you go to Dagestan then as a volunteer?
- Yes. In 1999, the Arabs went to Dagestan, and we decided to go with a friend, Igor Nesterenko. He is from Saratov. We were together in the Balkans. We looked and thought, it took a long time to draw up a contract, and there, in the mountains, in August the fuss began, we barely had time. There was a lot of work.
- So you come there as a simple person, a volunteer, and what are you doing? You might not be allowed into the war zone, right?
- When people are bombed, people are shot, the government there is no longer up to the bureaucracy. The visa was delivered - and then it's up to you. Do you want to go shopping, but you want to - fight.
It's in the Balkans. And how is it in Dagestan?
- And in Dagestan it is even easier - the border is open, you as a tourist came - you can sunbathe in the Caspian Sea, or you can go to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Do you need? Needed. And to the mountains.
So you went to the Ministry of Internal Affairs first of all?
- Not necessarily in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. There are also other structures there. We will not elaborate.
Did you teach someone or did you fight yourself?
- There was no time to teach, there was work.
Were you armed?
- They gave out something. Then they either took the trophy or bought something. It was tight with ammunition and equipment. And if you want to win, you have to prepare well.
You said that you went to Kosovo to help the Orthodox, but why did you go to Dagestan?
- But this is our state. Russia. Moreover, who is the enemy? The same ones who were in the Balkans. On the radio it was often heard that the comrades were from our regions, from Central Asia, from Turkey. The contingent is the same.
After Dagestan, you officially returned to the army - did you want to continue fighting?
- The group had to move from Dagestan to Chechnya, it was necessary to sign a contract for everything to be legal. We signed a contract in the fall of 1999, with the 45th Airborne Regiment. And Igor Nesterenko and I went to Chechnya. On December 1, 1999, he died near Argun. Night ambush, oncoming. At 2 am the battle began. He was wounded and died at half past four.
Is this the only friend of yours that you lost?
- Well no. There were many. I remember everyone. In Georgia, our comrades also died.
After the death of your friend, you too were ambushed, and your foot was blown off. Why did you return to the army?
- I didn’t leave. I spent a month and a half in the hospital while the prosthesis was being adjusted, and there I had to get ready for a business trip.
That is, how, from a hospital bed, in a prosthesis?
- Well, yes. On June 25, 2003, I was blown up, ended up in the hospital, and in September I went on a business trip.
Did you blow up in Chechnya and leave for Chechnya?
- Well, yes. It was blown up near Argun, this is such a working area of ours, you don't get bored there. And now, I think there is a lot of work there. But since they say peace, then peace.
Do you believe that there is peace?
“You don’t have to trust us.” We need to prepare for the worst. For a military man, politics is superfluous.
But many of your colleagues are unhappy with the current policy towards Chechnya
- And what do they say on TV? Is everything okay there? It means everything is OK. We will analyze when they say that it is time to go on a business trip.
Do you think they will?
- Let's see.
"Business is not our word"
- Do you have a family?
- There is. Here is the Pate. I brought it back from Chechnya in 2004. He is a fighting friend. He flew on military sides. He was wounded. I was sick, pumped out four times. Well, I have a wife too, a child.
Did they give you an apartment?
- Dali last year. Right here, behind the headquarters. A house was built on the territory of the unit. Some of the apartments were given to the military of the Moscow garrison, the rest were sold. Business.
You don't seem to like business?
- "Business" is not our word.
And what is yours?
- Just work.
It turns out that you got an apartment at the age of 46?
- Yes. Well, not bad too. Although on business trips, you can't think about an apartment or a family. There will be no result. And you have to think about the result.
You are just an altruist. Do you disapprove of people who leave the army because they have no housing and money?
- Maybe they will find themselves later. It's just that everyone has difficulties and the main battle is yet to come. Today he quit, and in five years, maybe he will still have a normal business. Let him prepare every day for this business - morally, physically. You must always be ready.
You met with Vladimir Putin when he presented you with the Hero's Star, and then, last year, with Dmitry Medvedev, when he was awarded for Georgia. What did you talk about?
- Congratulations.
Did you talk about problems?
- Putin asked: "Where do you live?" I said, "In the hostel." He: "I see."
- Did they give you an apartment after that?
- After that, four years later.
Explain how the task of a paratrooper differs from another military man? You don't jump behind enemy lines from an airplane, do you?
- We can jump. Land where you need to.
What task did you have in South Ossetia?
- Prepare forward detachments, find and neutralize their forward groups, and most importantly - collect intelligence so that the bulk of our troops lead a successful offensive and destruction of the enemy.
So you are in the first echelon?
- As far back as I can remember, I have been the head of the head patrol. The Airborne Forces themselves are considered as the vanguard of the army. And our regiment, military reconnaissance, is considered the vanguard of the entire Airborne Forces.
Do you have the same callsign all these years?
- In the Balkans there was "Rus77", then only "Rus" remained, 77 to pronounce for a long time.
Why "Rus"? Do you consider yourself a Russian patriot?
- Is that bad? Need to work. We don't live long enough to be spectators all our lives. Especially if you can help. And not only on business trips, but also in peaceful life.
Today many people are afraid to send their children to the army. The army has become a symbol of evil. How do you look at this?
- And how to look here? The guy studies at school, then at the institute, then mows, runs like a hare, looking for help. And so on until the age of 27. Some of my friends went to a concert, like in "Nord-Ost". Someone to school. Somewhere they seized a school, somewhere a concert. And now one friend was killed, the other was killed. Someone survived. And who saved? Military. If everything is closed, we will not let the sons into the army - what will happen?
But in the army hazing, they kill boys for nothing
- Our boys are killed in doorways, in restaurants, in clubs and in school toilets. We have an army - who is this? This is the people. What a society, such an army. Moreover, the influence of the West - permissiveness, democracy and other fashionable words. Only they have their own characteristics, and we have our own. Our country is multinational, their methods do not suit us. In general, weakness provokes violence. Why are women, pensioners, children often attacked? Because the weak. There will be nothing in response. You need to be able to stand up for yourself both at the state level and at the level of each person. You need to prepare for the worst so that this does not happen. And to walk in pink glasses, la-la-poplar, and then they knocked you down on the green light, and the one who knocked down disappeared and he will have nothing. This is what awaits everyone who is hiding. And if someone is beaten on the street, no matter who - a girl, a boy, a homeless person - and you walked past and did not interfere, - everything, kerdyk, the same will happen to you. You can't hit, just call the police. Already good.
When you are given an order, you are always ready to carry out, without thinking, why such an order?
- We are thinking about how to carry out the order better.
"The outcome of the war, as before, is decided in close combat"
- Tell us about the war with Georgia.
“The equipment on the other side was good. Everything was regular with us, everything was as usual, and they were crammed with the most modern technology, weapons, equipment, communications, surface-to-air missiles. They had a lot of things. In radio electronics, they have everything the most modern. In general, they were very well prepared. They had no luck with the instructors. Or saved on instructors, or something. If their instructors were interested, we would have more difficulties and problems.
What do you have in mind?
- Each country has its own advisers or instructors. We have our officers. They are foreigners. It is no secret that the Ukrainians are strong in radio electronics, they are also good specialists in missiles, for example. In tactics, in sabotage, these are the Turks. And I can say for sure that the Turks worked as instructors for the Georgians. Because when working in Chechnya, you often come across mercenaries with Turkish passports and Georgian visas. It is possible that ours were there too, from our regions. But we, in general, do not care under what banner they are and what nationality. If they go against the state with weapons in their hands, then they must be destroyed.
But they did not go against our state, did they? South Ossetia was not even recognized by Russia at that time …
- There was no status, but we thought they were ours …
Why "ours"?
- Neighbors. Our neighbors. Borderlands. Moreover, they asked for help from us. Why not help the state, which decides to become independent, and someone is hindering it? If you stand and watch how a neighbor is being cut, then tomorrow we will have it all. Just imagine, suspicious residents settled on your site and you were silent, and when these people began to arm themselves, you were silent, and when they began to appear on the site with knives, you were silent, and then, when they began to kill people in the next apartment, neighbors yours, would you be silent too? No, you couldn't help but intervene. Because tomorrow they will come with knives to your apartment. It's the same with South Ossetia, only on a larger scale.
Did you get to Georgia through Abkhazia or South Ossetia?
- After Saakashvili attacked Tskhinvali, we went from Abkhazia to Zugdidi and Senaki.
That is, you have not been in Tskhinvali itself and do not know what happened there? They say that the advantage there was won thanks to Yamadayev's fighters. What do you think decided the outcome of the war?
- I don't know about Yamadayev's fighters, I saw them only from the Abkhaz side. Probably, they helped in some way. We and the tsarist army had divisions from the Caucasus, which solved any problems quickly and uncompromisingly.
And so, judging by the reasons for their defeat, the Georgians are well prepared, but preparation for war will not always be able to help in a real battle, you still need to be able to use this preparation. I think their problem is that their modern rulers never had a fighting spirit and they just don't know what a war with another people is. Especially with Russia. They thought it would be easy. It costs nothing to lay down our peacekeepers. What will we swallow. It didn't work out.
You say that the Georgian army was well armed. Everyone knows that the Russian one is not very armed. After this war, the Russian army learned a lesson? In terms of rearmament, for example? The Russian army doesn't even have drones. And the small arms are outdated
- This is how long I serve, I saw drones twice. Once in the second campaign in Chechnya, once in Georgia. What is he like? He wound up, buzzed, crashed into a pole at the airfield, and that was all. So do not flatter yourself.
Our military reconnaissance can work in mountainous and wooded areas, and in the desert, and in the most difficult street, urban battles. We have shown ourselves well both in the Balkans and in Chechnya. But the outcome of modern warfare, as before, is decided in close combat. Bombing is one thing. The shelling is different. And the result is still achieved in ground battles. At the same time, our armament practically does not change. Yes, the Georgians had m4 and m16 assault rifles. And we have AKM and AKMS, Kalashnikov assault rifles. I have been at war with them since the 80s, but these are the most successful types of weapons for close combat.
You noted the good training of the Georgian military. Do you think they were preparing for this war?
- Of course, but what questions can there be if they burned half of Tskhinvali in one night?
But they say that Russian "grads" were shooting at Tskhinvali there as well
- Now they can say anything. But who killed the peacekeepers and civilians on the first night? In Tskhinvali. And there were no losses from the Georgian side.
There were also people killed in Gori. In the border villages, houses were destroyed, and shells fell on their territory
- Well, of course, if their artillery hits our troops, and our troops are already on their territory, it is clear that the houses will be destroyed. Our troops had an order to go to Georgia - Georgia began an aggression against Ossetia. Someone was directing her, I think.
And do you think it is correct that the troops went into the depths of Georgia, and did not, for example, on the border of South Ossetia and Georgia?
- It was then the most correct decision. As our former prime minister, our former president, says, preventive measures are essential to bring the task to its logical conclusion. If you exchange blows at the border all the time, it will be expensive. And we will lose a lot of people.
But if you follow this idea, then the logical conclusion should have been different - to reach Tbilisi. That is, in the end, there was no logical conclusion either
- The main thing for us is the order. They said to conduct an operation on this site, we are conducting it. They told us to step back, we went away.
You said that the neighbors need help and that you helped South Ossetia. But Georgia is also a neighbor. And it turns out that relations with this neighbor are ruined forever
- Yes, especially among the Ossetians and Abkhazians, they are spoiled. Well, what was to be done? All are independent presidents. They decide to send their army to civilians. If they had not done this, it would have been different. If you talk for a long time, you can always agree to something. And so that in a few days to expose the whole country at gunpoint - well, excuse me, who is to blame. When our tanks were near Tbilisi, I think the civilian population there made conclusions about the adequacy of this government. And all for the sake of overseas friends. And I think that it is better to be friends with neighbors on the site than to fight with them and wait every day that they will come to you with weapons.
Ossetians, neighboring people, asked you for help, and you helped. And if the Chechens at one time asked for help from the same Georgia or Turkey and they would help them - would that also be correct?
- You need to know the history at least from the 90th year. Look at Chechnya. What was the ruler, such was the story … There were many Arabs there, who helped them with weapons and money for the conduct of hostilities? Someone also helps with terrorist attacks. I don't think that the girl from the village who worked as a teacher thought and thought and suddenly went and blew up the subway together with civilians, passengers on the train. It means that someone is directing them. Here were Dudayev, Maskhadov. What did they do? They were practically separated. Well, they would live for themselves, they would not touch anyone. But they began to put pressure on their neighbors, Dagestan. And nearby Ingushetia, Stavropol, where raids were made. And this is already a threat to the integrity of the state.
"My business trips are not over yet"
- You are one of those who are called the dogs of war. What was the most difficult war for you?
- Each is difficult in its own way. But the meaning is the same everywhere - to complete the task, inflict damage on the enemy, not bring joy to the enemy.
If you remember all your wars, was there anything you regret?
- You regret that your comrades died. But you still know - we are not the first, we are not the last. You just have to do your job well. To make the enemy feel bad.
Are you a believer?
- My faith is in action.
So you don't go to church?
- No. Well, that is, sometimes I go to see it - it's beautiful.
You are 47. How long do you intend to remain in the service?
- Until they kicked out. Time is like that. I think my business trips are not over yet.
From Afgan to Abkhazia
// Business card
Anatoly Lebed was born on May 10, 1963 in the city of Valga (Estonia). Graduated from the Civil Engineering School, in 1986 - from the Lomonosov Military Aviation Technical School. He passed military service in the Airborne Forces. In 1986-1987 he fought in Afghanistan as an onboard helicopter technician. He served in the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany, the Trans-Baikal and Siberian military districts - in the 329th transport-combat helicopter regiment and the 337th separate helicopter regiment. In 1994, he retired to the reserve, worked in the Afghan Veterans Fund.
After the invasion of Dagestan by Chechen fighters in the summer of 1999, he went to the area of hostilities and enlisted in the people's militia. Then he entered into a contract with the Ministry of Defense and ended up in the 45th separate guards reconnaissance order of Alexander Nevsky, the special purpose regiment of the Airborne Forces.
In 2003 he was blown up by a mine, lost his foot.
Lieutenant colonel. Hero of Russia (received in 2005 for the second Chechen campaign). He was awarded the Order of St. George, 4th degree (for the war with Georgia in 2008), the Order of the Red Banner, three Orders of the Red Star, three Orders of Courage, the Order For Service to the Motherland in the Armed Forces of the USSR, 3rd degree.
