In modern warfare, air attack weapons play a decisive role in most cases. Accordingly, the role of air defense systems has also increased. This is especially true of short-range anti-aircraft missile systems, the combat crews of which are charged with the complex and responsible task of destroying enemy air attack weapons that have broken through other lines of the air defense system. NVO observer Nikolai POROSKOV spoke with the chief designer of anti-aircraft missile systems of the Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant Kupol Iosif DRIZE. On account of this enterprise - the development of several world-famous and highly effective short-range air defense systems at once.
- Dear Joseph Matveyevich, you are rightfully considered to be the creators of the scientific and engineering design basis for building military air defense systems. Under your scientific supervision, the Krug, Osa, Tor air defense systems and their modifications have been developed, mastered in production and adopted by the troops. And now "Torah" is 30 years old, and "Ose" - all 45. How did their idea come about? What dictated their improvement in different years?
- After the Second World War, aircraft with jet engines appeared, the speed and altitude increased significantly. Gun aiming stations, which provided information for the control of anti-aircraft artillery, were ineffective for dealing with new aircraft. The air defense received missiles, the likelihood of hitting air targets increased, and radar-based anti-aircraft defense aircraft began to press down on the ground. In this case, the locators were wrong in determining the coordinates.
Combat firing is conducted by the Tor-M2KM air defense missile system.
The task was to create a complex to combat low-altitude targets. This is how the Wasp appeared, which made it possible to fight targets flying at an altitude of 25 m and at a distance of up to 10 km. The complex had a relatively long reaction time (from target detection to missile launch) - 26 seconds. But low-flying targets could appear at a very short range, it was necessary to have time to hit them, which required a shorter reaction time. And a new complex was created with acceptable characteristics called "Thor". Unlike the Wasp, it was significantly automated, it used new types of radar, which made it possible to reduce the reaction time to 5–8 seconds. This significantly increased the combat effectiveness.
- It is clear that any weapon is constantly being improved. Are the recommendations from the troops taken into account - the wishes of the "consumers"?
- The task is not just to develop a complex, but to make it so that the troops can use it. We still follow even the work of "Wasp", not to mention modern systems, extract information from the troops that may be of interest to us when creating new algorithms for the work of "Wasp" and "Torah".
- What foreign assessments of your complexes do you know?
- I have heard and read only laudatory reviews, I don’t know negative ones. Abroad there are complexes "Tor" of previous modifications, so it's easy to evaluate. Compared with foreign counterparts, "Thor" is undoubtedly one of the best.
- Not so long ago there were test firings of the Thor anti-aircraft missile system, which successfully hit the target on the move. On the basis of the materials received, programs will be formed that will make it possible to "use the movement" in various situations of the complex operation. What are these situations?
- This complex is designed to protect ground forces, including during their movement. Therefore, the ability of the complex to shoot on the move, in a column of troops, is very important. Having stopped to fire at air targets, the air defense complex delays the movement of troops. This, of course, is undesirable, since the likelihood of their defeat increases.
Based on the test results of previous models, we took up the task of shooting on the go. The experience gave positive results, the ability to shoot on the move will be introduced into the complexes released earlier - "Tor-M2U" and "Tor-M2".
- That is, before the air defense systems did not have such an opportunity?
- Before that, shooting was possible only from the parking lot.
- Are there complexes abroad that shoot on the move?
- Missile - no.
- As far as I know, you are working on sea and polar versions of the Tor air defense system. What are the features of these models?
- There are various modifications of the complexes. In particular, made on a tracked chassis - for any off-road. A complex on wheels was made for one of the countries. For specific uses of the complex, we consider various vehicles. At the exhibition-forum "Army-2016" a prototype of the Arctic version "Tor-2MDT" will be shown.
- The struggle of the creators of the means of attack and defense is eternal. Both those and others talk about the uniqueness of their offspring, their uniqueness. Who is right? Or is the truth, as always, in the middle? And where is the middle, if we talk about your complexes?
“Both are right. Here are new means of jamming, which are protection for the attackers. We are studying these means and developing methods to overcome new obstacles. Several years have passed - new obstacles have appeared, to which we also react, we are looking for counteraction. This process goes on continuously, like the continuous improvement of the means of attack and defense.
The Americans created aerodynamic targets using stealth technology - this is a reduction in the reflective surface of a target, a change in its geometric shape, the use of a coating that absorbs radio waves. Hence, a decrease in the target detection range. We, in turn, improve our ability to detect targets with less reflective surfaces.
- How?
- I would not like to talk about this.
- Developers, creators of any weapon are simply forced to look into tomorrow. What new means of air attack should we expect? Which of them are you already preparing to meet and neutralize? The sixth generation of aircraft is conceived entirely as drones. How do you take this circumstance into account when modernizing the complexes?
- Drones have lower characteristics than conventional aerodynamic targets: lower speed, greater vulnerability. But they take a lot. For this reason, our weapons must be multi-channel in order to simultaneously hit multiple targets.
- Apparently, it is necessary to take into account the ratio of the prices of the rocket and the UAV. The rocket is still more expensive.
- In relation to the simplest drones, yes, it is more expensive. But work is underway to reduce the cost of the rocket.
- Do you take into account in your developments the fact that the wars of the future are non-contact, network-centric, hybrid? How do you intend to counter the means of electronic warfare?
- When I talked about interference, I meant just electronic warfare. There are many methods of dealing with them. For example, we change the radiation frequency. Here again we see the confrontation between the bullet and the armor: the enemy manages to rebuild his obstacle in the same way as we do the frequency, or not. There is a way to extract useful information from the interference and use it.
Complexes of the "Tor" family can be effectively used in the coastal defense system, covering troops in coastal areas.
- Is it possible on your complexes to counter EMP - an electromagnetic pulse, the source of which is a high-altitude nuclear explosion?
- Modern air defense systems are protected from EMP. Mostly by escaping, but there are other means and methods as well.
- When developing atomic and then nuclear weapons, Kurchatov and his team actively used intelligence data. Are you using intelligence data?
- I receive information from higher organizations, and where they got it from, I do not know. Many confidential items slip through the open press. But it must be borne in mind that there is both information and misinformation in the open press. One must be able to separate one from the other. This is possible in principle, since we and them have a common science.
- The S-300 air defense system exists in two versions - object and military air defense. It was the competition between Bunkin and Efremov.
“They both left, but the competition, like their fame, remained.
- But, however, the Bunkin S-300P (PMU) is much more famous, it is more sold in comparison with the S-300V.
- The military system is built on tracks, can be deployed on any terrain, can move, which the S-300P cannot. Secondly, the characteristics of the S-300V were and are still higher than those of the competitor - due to the use of both radio engineering and aerodynamic methods. System "B" is also exported to different countries. The system made for the Ground Forces should cost more due to expensive vehicles, due to technical solutions to combat interference that even the transport itself introduces. Nevertheless, the efficiency-cost ratio is in favor of the military system. Its affected area is higher.
- But in the object air defense there is already a S-400, a S-500 "on demolition" …
- The S-400 is only trying to catch up with the S-300V …
- Which of the foreign analogues of your air defense systems evoke your respect and, possibly, fear? Have you met with the creators of foreign complexes Air defense, how did our weapons and aircraft designers do it?
- It's hard for me to compare. The Americans, for example, do not create such air defense systems, apparently believing that overseas can exist without fear of air strikes by low-flying targets. There is a good French complex "Crotal", the Germans are working in this direction, but the results are still unknown. I met with foreign designers only at international conferences, exhibitions of weapons, but not one-on-one.
- Did the Vympel engineering bureau make such a missile for the Tor-M2U that it hits the target missile head-on? Do the developers of the complex itself and the missiles for it work autonomously or interact?
- KB "Vympel" - our co-executors. I will clarify what you said. The complex has two modifications: "Tor-M2U" with an old missile, "Tor-M2" - with a new one.
- I have come across various explanations for the origin of the name "Thor". The first is from a geometric sphere, a toroid, a kind of donut. They say that this is how the missile fragments of the complex fly at the target, hitting it. And how really?
- The Ministry of Defense for the air defense systems of the Ground Forces at one time used the terminology of geometry: "Cube", "Buk" (the opposite of "Cuba"), "Square", "Circle", "Tor" - a toroid.
- The world quite often copies Soviet and Russian weapons, especially since the USSR transferred technical documentation to some of the then socialist countries. Has this happened to your complexes?
- The Chinese copy the "Thor" of the first modifications. They do not show their complex in the open press, so it is impossible to make any claims to them. We do not have a powerful service that could "beat off" our patent.
A bit of history. Before Desert Storm, a special unit of the multinational forces, using helicopters, infiltrated Kuwait, seized and removed the Osa anti-aircraft missile system with all technical documentation. A combat crew from the Iraqi military was also captured. What were the consequences of this event for you?
An important advantage of the "Thor" family air defense system combat vehicle is its tracked chassis, which allows the complex to be constantly in the combat formations of army units. Photos provided by the press service of JSC "IEMZ" Kupol"
- There was no technical, design documentation in Kuwait and could not be. There was only operational documentation.
- The media reported the following: in early 1991, during the hostilities, the Iraqi Osa anti-aircraft missile system shot down an American cruise missile. Was this ability of "Wasp" a surprise for you?
- Why not shoot down? "Wasp" and is designed to work on low-flying high-speed targets. Such is the American subsonic cruise missile.
- This year the Tor-M2U air defense system will replace the Osa-AK complexes in some formations of the Ground Forces. The day is not far off when the Wasp will no longer be needed. And then only Thor will remain? Or will there be some new air defense system? Vyacheslav Kartashov, Assistant to the General Director of Kupol for MTC and Government Orders, said: “Based on the existing scientific and technical developments and taking into account the experience of creating the entire family of Tor complexes, we are working on creating a promising, new short-range air defense system, which in terms of its performance characteristics will significantly exceed what was done earlier. What can you say about the upcoming air defense system?
- Kartashov said everything correctly. We, the developers, are improving the existing complexes, but in what direction, with what characteristics the new product will be, this is not for publication.
SAM "Tor" in a modular version can be placed on the roofs of buildings and structures, on hard-to-reach sites, trailers, semi-trailers, on railway platforms and even on low-tonnage ships. In the winter of 2014 in Sochi, Tor ensured the safety of the Olympic Games. What experience has been gained with this?
- At the Olympics, not a modular, but a conventional tracked "Thor" was used. There is also a sample of the modular "Torah", we offer it to foreign customers. Negotiations (with our consultations) are under way today through Rosoboronexport.
- The creators of the new Armata tank declare that its crew can fight in white shirts for days. Is it convenient for the crew to fight in your complexes?
- Our complexes meet the requirements of the military. You can fight on them in white shirts: there is an air conditioning system, ventilation …
- Complexes "Osa", which have not been produced for 20 years, still work effectively. That is, the potential for modernization is enormous. But "Wasp" is an analog complex, "Tor" is a digital one. Can we use some elements of the "Torah" in the modernization of the "Wasp"?
- This has already been done. The modernized "Wasp" is now undergoing state tests. The life of the complex will continue. Work is also underway on the "Thor". All this is done by a large team of the Izhevsk electromechanical plant "Kupol" and its Moscow branch (SKB), which is developing advanced systems. We expect that in the coming years we will be able to significantly upgrade the short-range air defense system.
